But what if God's plan is "to provide a strong leader if, and only if, X number of people pray for a strong leader"? In praying for a strong leader, you can influence the outcome of God's actions, but have you really changed his will? His will was always to provide the leader provided enough people prayed for it.

You just think that because we don't make comments like "How nice it is to make music as a metaphor for writing" just to show how ace we are for getting it.

By the last "evaluation", do you mean something like "value" or "worth"? If so (and that's not at all clear) maybe it would be better to use the word "valuation" instead. PS-I don't see why you don't have to judge your life by all the times that weren't Moments. I imagine if I were some total slob with no Moments except for achieving a single spectacular "arrival", which also happened to kill me. Would I go to heaven?

Oh, so can we define closed-mindedness from here on as: "Closed-minded people refuse to consider a proposition for reasons other than its content OR for reasons related to its content"? Hey, thanks a lot.

I see what you mean. By the same token, looking at why I'm wearing a striped shirt under a plaid sportcoat, courderoys, and sandals on a balmy summer day in the MidEast is going to lead nowhere. You could try addressing it from my position, but that would require squatting bareassed over a two-inch wide hole in the floor while feebly trying to force your raisin'd insides into some kind of productive motion. And I wouldn't recommend it if it's at all avoidable. The validity of prayer is mostly that it makes people prone to illogic and feelings of powerlessness feel good. No one's denying that. Considering, though, that this argument's about Jesu's Gethsemene prayer, and He's neither of those, it's just not very relevant. re the last bit: Oh... Well it's been nice talking to you. Sort of.

I was raised Catholic. You obviously weren't.

Consider the following chart: God doesn't want a strong leader + Man prays = No strong leader. God doesn't want a strong leader + Man doesn't pray = No strong leader. God wants a strong leader + Man prays = Strong leader. God wants a strong leader + Man doesn't pray = Strong leader. 1)In any of the instances above, did praying actually change God from doing what He was already planning on? 2) So what good is praying then? 3) What truth are Catholics strayed from? If your answer is "The truth that -=Baptist=- or some other Christian God is better", let me tell you that's just not going to happen. 4) You still didn't say "But Your will be done" in the poem. That's still the whole point. 5) Can you answer a question without babbling irrelevantly? What if it's a question from God? What about this one: "Are you still so dull?" - Jesus, Mt 15:16

The original pillar of salt (i.e., formerly Lot's wife) is about 10 miles from here. Here's a picture: http://www.atlastours.net/jordan/salt_pillar.jpg

Yes, that about covers it. The non-parenthetical part is the real title. The parenthetical part is so you'll read it. I've been afraid you don't anymore. I wonder which you think you are: standing, walking against the wind, or walking with the wind. I really couldn't say. Me, I'm probably the guy who walks against till it changes and then walks against again. 'Twas isn't Old English. It's not even necessarily Middle or Shakespearean English. It was used in poetry as late as Robert Frost, whom this poem is basically a halfassed word-substitution of. (Hence the maintained meter, hence the cumbersome sentence.) To be fair, I could have used "It's no more toil" and been grammatically and metrically correct. I just didn't think people'd find 'twas olden.

s the comments show, you are the first person to notice. Congratulations. However, in my award acceptance speech, you will notice that I freely admit to having no talent and plagiarising frequently. You pointing me out as a fraud was therefore unnecessary.

Yes, I did ask for a specific, isn't that what we all do most of the time? Dear God, I want a pony with a white mane and a little spot on his nose. Thank You. Do you ever really pray? Do you understand the efficacy of prayer? If you did, you would understand. Do you know what the rosary is? If you have no FAITH? OOH that's a strong word, and it means so much.

I merely ask that St Joseph, as the foster father of Our Lord, and the protector of the Church,consider the state of the Church, as it is today, and help them to elect a leader with the strength to do what is right. To bring Catholics back to the truth, and maybe the rest.

So I am being told. When I read them, I see several ways of saying the same thing. Would you care to speculate on why that might be. Perhaps you'd like to reiterate one of the the usual Dovina-dimtard answers or perhaps something like, "This is a consequence of trying to make Dovina see she is a 'woman' and therefore innately bad at arguing."

I have defined closed mindedness in several ways. And therein, Dovina, lies the problem.