poemranker ::Prayer For The Church by sliver

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Free verse № 122837

Prayer For The Church

by sliver

Member since 2002 · Posted 2 Apr 2005 · 29 comments

Guide us, St. Joseph Through this time of transition. Help your princes in their efforts To fill this lofty position. Help them to elect a leader With a strong hand, Someone with the wisdom And the strength to take a stand.

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29 comments

[n/a] thepinkbunnyofdoom 2-Apr-05/10:32 PM Reply
I won't vote because I respect the church, but I'm used to better from you. MUCH BETTER.

<3 Jason
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 3-Apr-05/8:33 AM Reply
If you don't pray to St. Joseph, will he neglect to guide us through this time of transition?
[n/a] tadpole › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 3-Apr-05/1:20 PM Reply
Dark. . . it has something to do with the well known saying "ask and you shall recieve"
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › tadpole 4-Apr-05/2:42 PM Reply
Yeah only that's a load of balls really, isn't it? If it weren't a load of balls, all those catholics would have survived the potato famine.
[n/a] tadpole › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 4-Apr-05/9:20 PM Reply
Well, if they were truely Catholic in their prayers, they most likely would have been praying for whatever God-willed. . .even if that meant their own deaths.
(you know, like Jesus during His Passion when He asked more than once for His suffering to be taken away. . .unless it be the will of His Father)
[5] zodiac › tadpole 4-Apr-05/10:43 PM Reply
Oh God, this conversation's going downhill fast.

So why bother asking God to "help them elect a leader", etc? Why not just ask for His will to be done, even if it means not finding a leader at all, or finding one who's a total clod?

Do you hope the new pope will have a stronger hand and take more stands than JohnPaul2 did, or do you just generally hope he'll have strong hands and take stands? If your answer is the first one, what do you hope he'll have stronger hands and better stands than JP2 about?

I'm genuinely curious.
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › tadpole 5-Apr-05/3:57 AM Reply
Then the rule should not be "Ask and ye shall receive," it should be "Ask me to do whatever I want, and I will do whatever I want." Do you agree?
[n/a] Dovina › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 5-Apr-05/7:07 AM Reply
No to both you and zodiac. Jesus prayed like Sliver is praying, except that Sliver is praying to St. Joseph. They both said something like, “please give what I think is right, nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” Praying is partly the recognition that God understands the situation much better than the person praying. It’s like a child asking a good parent for something. Sometimes the parent is influenced by the child’s request, sometimes not.
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › Dovina 5-Apr-05/7:32 AM Reply
But don't you see how that's different from "Ask and ye shall receive"?

Incidentally, I have always though Jesus's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane was one of the stupidest prayers ever uttered by a divine being. I mean, Jesus asked God to spare Him the horrors of the cross, but only if it was possible. The implication of such a prayer is that if God could have spared Jesus from the cross, he would not have done so unless specifically asked to. Surely Jesus trusts God? Surely He trusts that God would only make Him suffer if it was necessary? NO. It seems Jesus thought God might conceivably make him suffer just for a laugh or something. UTTER TOSH!
[n/a] Dovina › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 5-Apr-05/11:12 AM Reply
Is that what you will say when you are old and in your humiliating death throws, incontinent, and being attended by a rubber-gloved nurse, swabbing a portion of your anatomy as you cry out in pain? Can’t you see that prayer is supposed to be inconsistent. If it were entirely logical, it would be void of meaning. Now tell me I just said an illogical thing, because I did.
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › Dovina 5-Apr-05/2:26 PM Reply
I'd be very surprised if sliver (or tadpole) would agree with you that prayer is supposed to be illogical.
[n/a] Dovina › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 5-Apr-05/6:14 PM Reply
If they say that prayer is a logical process, will you confront them on it? Because if you do, it could only lead to differing definitions of the word “logical.” You would prevail using the dictionary definition, and they would go away unchanged in their belief, but with a clearer understanding of what the word “logical” means. My question to you on this and many similar arguments is: What’s the point?
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › Dovina 6-Apr-05/3:28 AM Reply
Look you started this discussion saying that both me and zodiac were wrong. I can't vouch for zodiac, but when I pointed out to you that your notion of asking and only receiving if God wanted you to receive is different from "Ask and ye shall receive." This was my point all along, and you completely ignored it.

And I disagree with you about Jesus's prayer in Gethsemane. Jesus didn't pray such a stupid, illogical prayer in Gethsemane because prayer is "supposed to be inconsistent." He prayed a stupid, illogical prayer because the Bible is not divinely inspired, so either the prayer didn't happen, or it was prayed by an ordinary (though extremely deluded) beard-man.
[n/a] Dovina › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 6-Apr-05/8:34 AM Reply
When I said, “No to both you and zodiac,” I was saying that that way of looking at prayer has always led nowhere. I admittedly sidestepped the issues you raised, and addressed prayer from the position of people who pray, which I think carries some validity that you are sidestepping when you reduce prayer to illogical guff. (Sorry, you didn’t say that, but I think it’s where you’re headed.) You do not have to answer the concerns I raised in the above comments any more than I have to answer yours.
[5] zodiac › Dovina 7-Apr-05/5:37 AM Reply
I see what you mean.

By the same token, looking at why I'm wearing a striped shirt under a plaid sportcoat, courderoys, and sandals on a balmy summer day in the MidEast is going to lead nowhere. You could try addressing it from my position, but that would require squatting bareassed over a two-inch wide hole in the floor while feebly trying to force your raisin'd insides into some kind of productive motion. And I wouldn't recommend it if it's at all avoidable.

The validity of prayer is mostly that it makes people prone to illogic and feelings of powerlessness feel good. No one's denying that. Considering, though, that this argument's about Jesu's Gethsemene prayer, and He's neither of those, it's just not very relevant.

re the last bit: Oh... Well it's been nice talking to you. Sort of.
[5] zodiac › Dovina 6-Apr-05/3:24 AM Reply
Where does silver say "nevertheless, not my will but yours be done"?

Sure, he's backtracked and said it since -=Dark_Angel=-,P.I. called him on it, and it was probably somewhere in his mind when he was writing the poem. But this whole conversation is about whether you're asking for your own will or God's will while praying, so you have to admit that's a pretty big thing to leave out. As far as the poem/prayer goes, he's only asking for his own will.

PS-I notice you've totally changed your approach since posting this comment, and now prayer's not supposed to be logical. Well, I mean, duh. For one thing, you're talking to an invisible being with the omnipotent power to inconsistently grant incomprehensible gifts. For another thing, when you pray you pretty much have something in mind that you want (i.e., to pass this math test), but you're supposed to ask for whatever God sees fit to offer (i.e., a new Chevy Malibu), so you kind of want to remind God about the math test without seeming like you know better what you need. In that kind of bind, the Jesus model isn't a bad one; you tell God what you have in mind (i.e., not dying), then politely ask him to do whatever He was going to do in the first place (i.e., crucifixion). Unfortunately, that's not what silver did. That's the whole point.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 6-Apr-05/8:39 AM Reply
that's not too bad a definition of prayer.
[n/a] sliver › Dovina 6-Apr-05/10:08 PM Reply
I merely ask that St Joseph, as the foster father of Our Lord, and the protector of the Church,consider the state of the Church,
as it is today, and help them to elect a leader with the strength to do what is right. To bring Catholics back to the truth, and maybe the rest.
[5] zodiac › sliver 7-Apr-05/5:26 AM Reply
Consider the following chart:

God doesn't want a strong leader + Man prays = No strong leader.
God doesn't want a strong leader + Man doesn't pray = No strong leader.
God wants a strong leader + Man prays = Strong leader.
God wants a strong leader + Man doesn't pray = Strong leader.

1)In any of the instances above, did praying actually change God from doing what He was already planning on?

2) So what good is praying then?

3) What truth are Catholics strayed from? If your answer is "The truth that -=Baptist=- or some other Christian God is better", let me tell you that's just not going to happen.

4) You still didn't say "But Your will be done" in the poem. That's still the whole point.

5) Can you answer a question without babbling irrelevantly? What if it's a question from God? What about this one:

"Are you still so dull?" - Jesus, Mt 15:16
[n/a] -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. › zodiac 7-Apr-05/7:38 AM Reply
But what if God's plan is "to provide a strong leader if, and only if, X number of people pray for a strong leader"? In praying for a strong leader, you can influence the outcome of God's actions, but have you really changed his will? His will was always to provide the leader provided enough people prayed for it.
[5] zodiac › -=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 8-Apr-05/5:31 AM Reply
I doubt even sliver would suggest that.

All things considered, I think he's about two comments away from saying God preknows the number of people who will pray for a certain outcome, which happens to be the exact number he requires to provide that outcome, which happens to be the outcome he wanted anyway. And then we'll all be swimming in it.

Consider: Far fewer people prayed for Terri Schiavo to be spared the indignity of lifelong tubing than prayed for her to continue her tubed and vegetable existence, but God went for the detubing anyway.
[0] edpeterson › sliver 7-Apr-05/3:25 PM Reply
If there were a God, my only prayer every day would be that He not consider what nitwits like you want. For every one of your prayers, I offer...the anti-prayer.
[n/a] sliver › zodiac 6-Apr-05/10:19 PM Reply
Yes, I did ask for a specific, isn't that what we all do most of the time? Dear God, I want a pony with a white mane and a little spot on his nose. Thank You.
Do you ever really pray? Do you understand the efficacy of prayer? If you did, you would understand. Do you know what the rosary is? If you have no FAITH? OOH that's a strong word, and it means so much.
[5] zodiac › sliver 7-Apr-05/5:28 AM Reply
I was raised Catholic. You obviously weren't.
[0] edpeterson › Dovina 7-Apr-05/3:18 PM Reply
what a load of shit.
[0] edpeterson 7-Apr-05/3:14 PM Reply
I giant, malodorous dumpling, the likes of which I have rarely seen. It is marvelous.
[n/a] http://mulberryfairy 28-Apr-05/8:27 PM Reply
What's outrageous?
Papal praise is
What's disgusting?
Condom bustin'
What's outrageous?
Celebate priests is
What's forbidden?
alter boy smitten

What do we want?
Condoms!
When do we want 'em?
Now!
[10] deleted user 13-Oct-05/5:25 PM Reply
Yippeee sliver--excellent poem. I thought it was fabulous...so i gave you a TEN.......i am putting ten in caps just to make sure you don't mistaken it for a 0!
[10] amanda_dcosta 19-Dec-05/4:59 AM Reply
Sliver, do your best
and God will do the rest.

Keep up the good work. (10)