Re: a comment on Mid Years by Dovina	Dovina 12.72.8.214	14-May-05/8:29 AM
This is a very similar question to the one you asked above and which I answered. I believe now you are saying that since I have agreed that sex is the object of relationship, what is this emotional support crap all about? It’s the old misrepresent-and-then-clobber technique. Well, I stick with it – emotional support is the single most important element in relationship.
Re: I sat beside the night by Niphredil	Niphredil 192.115.27.159	14-May-05/3:41 AM
I wrote this poem when I was in 8th or 9th grade. It's one of my favorites.
Re: Nesting Instinct of Women by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/2:06 AM
PPS- re: "leaving-the-nest fear is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS at its root man-centered." Also, "[her] duty is to become impregnated and return home to rear children." It's going to be the easiest thing in the world for you to say something like, yeah you like to think so you mancentric pig. Let's make sure we're on the same page: No, of course I don't like to think so. It sucks. But I don't see any harm in keeping it as ONE way of looking at MOST human and animal interactions (as long as it's understood I mean "biologically or originally, as with bees and cavepeople, and only in a vestigial way with modern people, her duty is to..."). And I do see a lot of harm in avoiding it simply because it sounds kind of distasteful. Also, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. These are standard things held to be true by most feminist scholars, irrespective of gender. No, that doesn't mean you have to take their (or my) word for it. But where's your clearly-articulated and well-supported worldview, then? Why don't you try writing it down? I'm in the market for a new one.
Re: Nesting Instinct of Women by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/1:52 AM
This is absurd. You're either talking without properly thinking again or you should build yourself a cardboard box and tape yourself inside. You're going to say, I expected you to say that. Guess what? I expected you to say that. You're going to get me wrong, I'm sure, so listen: I'm ALL ABOUT writing about women existing without men, believe me. In 99% of the cases I can imagine, it'd be absurd and fascist to read something that gives men no influence and say, hey where're the men? But seriously, the construct in this poem is beyond belief. That said, yes, of course, the virgin is most likely sealed in her egg/pupal-thingy/honeycomb-cell by a woman, her mother; the metaphor carries through. And okay, the being wakened by sisters' wings is a little Showtimey/Amazonian, but I can dig. After that it just gets nuts. The thing she fears to leave the honeycomb/cell for (in the bee-image AND the metaphor for people) is the sexual encounter. With a man. Seriously. Even if she's a gay bee, leaving-the-nest fear is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS at its root man-centered. The whole show, the mothers sealing their girls in the egg and everything, is made by and for the benefit of men. Yes, you could be saying that; but if you are, you're doing it in about the fruitest and least-useful way imaginable. Same with the "duty" she has to do. On both the nature AND human levels, the duty is to become impregnated and return home to rear children, probably by a sexual encounter that will be anything but pleasurable to her. Incidentally, that means the wind you're talking about that draws her from her course is exactly her duty, so what ARE you talking about? Now, let's backtrack a little. Maybe she's a particularly enlightened bee and the duty she's leaving the hive for is, I don't know, to become an executive, or travel the world seeking wisdom and well-being. Then she gets blown off course and runs smack into a manbee's ready cock and it's all over. Right? Do you think either of those are particularly enlightened ideas to write poems about? Yeah, if you live in the 19th century. In either event, you have a woman fearing (and by extension centering her existence around) sexual encounter with a man. Sure, that's a reality for the majority of women, but why write a poem about so uselessly euphemistic about it? And here's the kicker: she can return to the honeycomb when she wants. Hey, great! No, wait. That's EXACTLY what the fucking manbee wants when he's done with her, biologically and metaphorically. Again, yes it's true. But WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY write about it like this? Do you condone the whole scenario? No? It sounds like it. How about this one instead? Woman bee smacks into manbee's cock; copulation ensues; maybe it's not great for her; the SHE FLIES ON ABOUT HER BUSINESS. Wouldn't that be nice? PS-Scientifical accuracy alert.
Re: a comment on Mid Years by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/1:02 AM
Considering that Stephen's comment above is, in fact, the "simple economics of male sex", what do you think is the advantage for women of being in relationships? Is there an advantage, or all they all just colossally misguided?
Re: a comment on Mid Years by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/12:58 AM
I propose that a good relationship is good because the people in it need very little emotional support. I know you're misreading this, so let me clarify: Of course I occasionally need emotional support, as does my wife. And of course we give it to each other. But the truth is that the amount of emotional support we've needed in the last, say, year wouldn't get most Californians through dinner. This despite that we live in a woman-hating desert backwater. Women in places like the Middle East belittle the sex-instinct because they don't know any better. Women in places like America belittle the sex instinct because they think it's going to be roses and tenure and are disappointed when it isn't. In any case, it's still an oppression designed by men. Have fun thinking you're more enlightened for subsribing to it. Don't blame your "merely" problem on being a woman. Scientifically speaking, at any rate, men should tend more then women to use and misuse "merely". Do the math.
Re: a comment on Homecoming by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/12:17 AM
Am I crazy thinking this poem was originally simply about a woman sneaking home after a one-night stand? If it was, it was better that way.
Re: a comment on Homecoming by Dovina	zodiac 212.118.19.179	14-May-05/12:15 AM
re "Messing up autobio's because of muddled feelings intervening? That's an odd thing to say." No it's not. To take one instance (of many), I'm currently reading T.E. Lawrence's memoir Seven Pillars of Wisdom, where he strains himself trying to make Bedouin bumming sound healthy. Talk about feelings getting in the way!
Re: A Kiss Beneath The Blossom Tree by Caducus	some deleted user 67.33.214.158	13-May-05/10:07 PM
THis is a sweet, sentimental, evocative narrative. I especially like the first two strophes. L4-5 of S1, and the mention of the limp were especially strong. The conclusion has one foot over the line into triteness. Overall very good, but would think about the last strophe. Really you don't need it IMHO.
Re: a comment on Strings by Fayt	Fayt 66.217.138.26	13-May-05/9:06 PM
Well thank you for explaining yourself a little better. Now i can understand your critizism. and thanks for the encouragement. ;)
Re: Nesting Instinct of Women by Dovina	some deleted user 81.69.23.196	13-May-05/5:41 PM
Discovery and National Geographic outclassed Nature & Science poetry... Nice imagines. Indeed, a stiff breeze must be hell for the little ones.
Re: a comment on a 9,000.00$ Philippine script treatment by Shardik	-=Dark_Angel=-, P.I. 82.39.22.33	13-May-05/4:41 PM
I haven't changed at all in two years. I just read this poeme again, thinking it was new, and thought, "I hate Spanish-sounding names."
Re: self-observation in a chatroom with lack of sleep by nentwined	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/1:18 PM
It slides downhill from the good first verse, as you no doubt intend. Get some rest!
Re: a comment on Homecoming by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/1:13 PM
It is possible to vote again, overwriting your first vote. However, if I have to explain a poem then the poem does not adequately explain itself.
Re: a comment on Homecoming by Dovina	some deleted user 81.69.23.196	13-May-05/12:55 PM
'Why was it I left the bed?' This one is another example. For this I read Blandness. She keeps looking for the man who isn't nameless, whose face does not blend into all the other faces, she can't find him and that depresses her. Now how was I to know you meant d.m.d.?... Stanza 5 gives the answer. And I overlooked it. Which means that you wrote a strong poem that requires more than just a superficial reading. That's true poetry, I think. It acutally deserves more than the 7 I gave it.
Re: A backsliders struggle by nicole081083	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/11:53 AM
Too many words. It would be stronger with half as many.
Re: a comment on Homecoming by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/10:36 AM
Yes, I see what you mean now about the other possible ending. The option, which she had all along, of taking two quick steps in a direction away from the oncoming car, never occurred to me. Of course, I see it now, she could have done that, and how I wish she had. No, it is a better thing she did considering her degenerative mental disease. It is part of the muddling that went on in my head. Thanks again.
Re: a comment on Mid Years by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/10:24 AM
To answer your question: A good relationship is good because of the emotional support it provides. This, of course, is a typical female view that belittles the much more natural animal instincts and gives rise (pardon the pun) to words ke “merely.” To support my breasts so I don’t trip over them while walking, I look to the professional services of bra manufacturers, an option you might consider in solving your animal-based needs.
Re: a comment on Mid Years by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.185	13-May-05/9:56 AM
I am happy you have explained the simple economics of male sex to zodiac, thus saving me the effort. Relationship is indeed a poor alternative to the direct approach.
Re: On the Bank of Lake Michigan by jessicazee	some deleted user 81.69.23.196	13-May-05/6:05 AM
The erection at the end you call an ocean... I get the picture, but perhaps you should put a blank line between 6 and 7 the prevent the reader from running off the stage...