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God and Country (Haiku) by dougsoderstrom Prayers to Jesus,
Flags a waving,
Missiles launched from pews.
Up the ladder:
i will bare it:
Down the ladder:
Call Me Lional
Votes: (green: user, blue: anonymous)
Arithmetic Mean: 4.6190476
Posted: September 16, 2002 6:26 AM PDT; Last modified: September 16, 2002 6:57 AM PDTWeighted score: 4.6258993 Overall Rank: 12421 Comments:
Amen. Excellent. Folk-art at it's very best. May I print and share?
Dear god'swife:
With a compliment like that, you can not only print and share my poem with any others with whom you choose, but I shall, as a result, live the next week with a special smile on my face knowing that I am perhaps in the process of learning how to write poetry. Thank you god'swife, and if you have time, please tell your husband (god?) that I do appreciate everything he has done for me up to this point in my life. Your Friend, Doug
say hi to jesus for me, would you? and don't forget to prauy for me!! thanks!!
Dear zzinnia66:
Yes, I will say hi to Jesus for you-----However, is there anything in particular you would like me to tell him for you when I do get around to talking with Him? If so please let me know. Doug
I wanna talk to God! STAT!
Please ask Him if He knew beforehand that naughty Adam would partake of the Fruit of Knowledge of Nudity.
Dear Dark_angel:
That is a wonderful question indeed?----as Eve's partaking of "the fruit" could no doubt refer to the temptation to have sex with Adam. Good point, indeed! Of course, the more general question that you are referring to is that of the degree to which God is omnicient (that is to the degree that God knows everything----even perhaps if knew ahead of time what every human being who He created was going to do before he or she did it. Which then brings up the largest question of all-----The most important question for Christendom--------How could it be possible for an omnicient God of love to require every human being to make a conscious verbal assent to the fact that Jesus Christ is their own personal savior knowing full well that there would be many who would not have a reasonably good opportunity to "accept Him" realizing that every single one of these human beings would spend an eternity of agony in Hell-----Also given the fact that only 1/3 of all human beings on the earth today identify themselves as Christians and that perhaps only 1/3 of that 1/3 have actually accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal savior, then it would be reasonable to say that all conservative fundamentalists (e.g. Southern Baptists) must believe that approximately 90% of all human beings living on the earth today will end up spending all of eternity in Hell. So, in conclusion, assuming that human beings had no choice to choose to become a human being, the question can be refrased this way: How could it be possible for an omnicient God of Love (a God of compassion and concern for the welfare of those of whom he has created) to create, without any choice on their own part to become a human being), human beings of whom at least 90% would end up spending an eternity in the agonies of Hell? What do you think about that Dark_Angel? Doug
I think the problem is solved if you just accept that Christianity is bullshit. What do you think about that, Sir!
Dear Dark_Angel:
First of all, you do not need to call me sir just because I have a Ph.D. degree in psychology---we can dispense with the formality. Yes, you are right ----we could simply do away with Christianity as, you say, a bunch of "bullshit." And I have considered that alternative quite seriously myself. However, at least for me anyway, that would be like throwing out the "baby" with the proverbial "bathwater." And that would not be a good thing to do. In many ways then I have chosen to throw out the "bathwater of Christianity." But, on the other hand, I have decided that, at least for me anyway, it would be best to "keep a hold of the baby"------that is, keep ahold of The Baby Jesus. I say this because, in my own mind, he grew up to be one of the most (if not the most) wonderful example of how to live a life. He went on to show us how to live a life of love and compassion toward other fellow humanm beings. And he did such a thing , after a while, realizing that if he didn't stop doing what He was doing, that he would be murdered for his commitment to the poor, the hurting, and the wretched rejects of His time. So I would say that Jesus Christ, as a human being, was willing to place the value of love (His ultimate concern for other human beings around Him) above and beyond His own need to stay alive. And that, at least in my own mind, is what makes Jesus Christ (but not Christianity) such a wonderful model for human life. Doug
dougsoderstrom, I have no problem with accepting that Jesu was a wonderful, kind, amazing person, and that he gave his life because he thought he could save humanity. But the rest of it is bullshit, and I don't see how your point here affects whether it is or not.
I don't mean to be crude or seem ignorant, because I've "done" "philosophy of religion" until my face nearly burst, but my experience is that 90% of Christians don't put up a decent argument, so it saves time to just say what I think. For all I know, you do. Good day, Sir.
Dear Dark_Angel:
In regards to your last comment that I did not see listed-----the one concerning the fact that "conservative religious fundamentalists" are not capable of responding to the concern that I raised in regards to "How a God of love would allow 90% or more of His creation to end up going to Hell for an eternity"----well, I agree with you. I have raised this question with fundamentalists at least 1,000 times with at least a thousand people over the past 45 years, and I have never to this day ever heard any of them say anything that makes any sense at all. And quite simply said, there is nothing that they can say to defend themselves. Nothing that they can say to get them out of the bind that they have created for themselves! In fact, for any one who may eventually read what I just written, I dare you, as a fundamentalist to defend yourself. And if you can, you are a better man than I ever thought you could be.------Anyone, I mean anyone, go for it and try to make my day!! Doug Soderstrom P.S. Good luck Dark Angel-----and feel free to visit with me any time-----Your friend, Doug Doug
Dear Dark_Angel:
You asked that I respond to your question concerning God (the possibility of His existence) and the possibility that Christianity is bullshit (I suspect that here you more specifically mean "pure and unadulterated bullshit"). Well now, as to the question of God's existence you, as well as I, know that that question cannot be answered by us mere mortals. It is quite simply an assumption that each of us, for our own selves, (for all kinds of legitimate or sometimes rather illegitimate reasons) make----and, of course such unprovable assumptions are made on the basis of "faith" (and of course "faith" can sometimes be spelled as "ignorance and laziness," and in the more mature cases, it can be spelled as "a fairly reasonable axiomatic assumption concerning life". But nevertheless, it is just an assumption that we, as human beings should be allowed, by each other, to make, without the need for undue argument or debate. Now, in regards to the question of Christianity being "bullshit or not." Well, my own personal opinion on this is that Christianity is quite surely a matter of "pure and unadulturated bullshit" to the extent that it leads to hate, prejudice, injustice, and war. On the other hand, to the extent that Christianity leads each and everyone of us to be more kind, more gentle, more caring, more able to put ourselves into "the shoes of others," more willing to seek justice for all (especially those who have been persecuted), more humble, and more willing to say that "I am sorry and that "I forgive you,"---------to the extent that Christianity leads us to want to become more like Jesus Christ is the extent that Christianity (along with the other great religious traditions of our time)is absolutely essential to the survival of mankind----as well as our survival as individual human beings. In conclusion then, to the extent that Christianity (or even Buddhism, Hindsuism, Judaism,or the Moslem faith) enables our world to move toward the one and only acceptable goal of mankind (that being peace and love manifested by our own behavior on the earth) is the extent that our relationship to that which is most ultimate is good. What do you think? Doug
Dear Dark_Angel:
No doubt people have a right to question the validity of Christianity----especially given all of the wars waged, people killed, and evil perpetrated in the name of the Christian god. However, the person of Jesus Christ is a totally different thing. Personally, I feel that Jesus, because he lived such a wonderful life of showing us how to care about others----how he spent so much of His time (His effort and His teaching) loving and caring about those aroud Him who were hurting, poor, rejected, and despised, He has become one of the best (if not the best) example of how we might live our lives. This is why I believe that one can rightly choose to have a negative opinion of Christianity, while yet respecting The Man Jesus Christ----and perhaps even choosing to want to live like Him. Doug
Balth: 5/7/5 is an American translation of the haiku. See my complete diatribe in Doug's 9/11, which is not a haiku. But this is, and a pretty good one at that. You seem angry. do you have your flag out. Have you tried writing your congressperson? I wrote 736 letters to various political figures last year and am at 614 so far this year. Most asking for interviews and such, but now they all want money from me. Hmmm. Maybe we should bomb them.
i used to work for a very prominent US Senator (NY). Your letters are not going to do you any good. I know because I used to read them. And my flag is out a little (look at the comments on Regime Change and others by that guy). And I am angry. I'm from NY, I worked in the City for 5 years, those fucks killed thousands of people, destroyed downtown. I'd don't know where you live, but you'd be pissed too.
interesting variation of line length.
curiously trite, but right.`
Thank you, horus8.
Doug
religion and government suck, they will end up killing us all, i wish they would go away, nah, i wish i could go away, live on an island, bring some friends, it would be good times, and no government and church to fuck things up, yeah right like that would happen, i would probably just get invaded and some gov or church would try to occupy my utopia, fuck them fuck them all i wish they would die, god, shit, this sucks, not the poem, the situation
Write some more poetry about it, pathetic whining apathy ridden faggot fuck face dicklicker. Yeah or a haiku, even better. Grow up. You get a 10, unless you bother to vote.a
Do they still have lynchings in California or did Atticus Finch deal them the final blow?
radical. "SWAGGER AWARD FOR MISSILES AND JESUS IN A SUPER COMPACT HAIKU WITH EVEN A PEW TOO" nice one.
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Well, I do beg to differ balthazar, but I do believe that given a broader description of a haiku, that this could be considered to be a haiku-----but since you said so, why is it that you consider my poem not to be a haiku? Please explain. I would have said something about "planes being launched from 'fucking' mosques," but that is just not my thing. As I am kind of into criticizing the hypocricies of my own faith-----That is what I seem to be best at doing.
Doug
I guess that my own understanding of a haiku may not be perfect, but I think that what I have written falls within the more general guidelines of haiku.
And, by the way, my last line, I believe, does "turn a twist" in relation to the first two lines. The first two lines allude to Robert Bellah's idea of "civil religion."------the coming together of God and country, and most people in our culture, as well as those in most other societies, think that this is the naturally right thing to do. However, in line with a new book that I am now reading ("when Religion Becomes Evil" by Charles Kimball), there is little doubt in my mind that the blending of these two factors (that is, that of God and country) has caused more people to die, more wars to be waged, and more evil to be perpetrated than anything else in the world. And given this quite lethal combination of factors, there is little doubt that the two most pernicious religions of all are that of Christianity and the Moslem faith. So at this point in my life I believe I can no longer refer to myself as a Christian. However, that being said, the more that I seem to withdraw from the Christian Religion, the more that I feel myself drawn to wanting to be able to someday become (to someday be able to think and act like) Jesus.
Doug
and being like Jesus has nothing to do with religion. as you're well aware, the church has kept under wraps most of the stuff Jesus had said about formal "religion" because he said you don't need it. the whole "look at a stone, cut into a piece of wood...I am there" scared the establishment into burying it. so feel free to both pull away from religion and mold yourself after Jesus.
about your haikus. i seriously couldn't care less about the form they take. i'm just busting balls.
I think that we see pretty much "eye to eye" on all of this. Jesus is a "really good man!" But so is Mohammad, Buddha, and some of "the others." Although I, myself, may personally be quite partial to Jesus (my own personal bias), the Christian Religion (as well as the other faiths in relation to Mohammed, etc.), has done a lot to give others a very bad taste in their mouth in regards to major religions such as Christianity (and, as you say, Hinduism, as well.)
Doug
I am not sure what you mean by the term "genericity"----does that mean that you are referring to the generality or perhaps even meaninglessness of my opinions??? Please reply.
And as to your comment concerning the length of my responses----I assume that to be a form of criticism. But then again, everyone has the right to his or her own opinions.
Doug