Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/4:29 PM
You were rather cool about the idea when I mentioned it before. How do I know you're sincere now?
Re: a comment on You Have It Backwards by LilMsLadyPoet	13-Dec-05/4:24 PM
No!!! You're going to make her delete it. That's it, I'm multiple-tenning her.
Re: You Have It Backwards by LilMsLadyPoet	13-Dec-05/3:20 PM
(1) None of us has denied that there are very intelligent poor people and very stupid rich people. Personally, I'm glad you're smart. Our real difference of opinion is I hold that ON AVERAGE wealthy people are more intelligent than poor people ON AVERAGE. You've offered nothing to dispute that. (2) Naturally, IQ scoring is subjective. AlChemy and I have already pointed out how in the original string. I disagree with your other points in (2), for reasons I've already given. (3) But richer families are proven to be better at providing "stimulating, nurturing environments" ON AVERAGE. Again, I'm glad you had a good environment. But wealthier families are better able to afford an unemployed (or constantly available) parent, a nanny, or good childcare and preschool, while poorer families, traditionally, can't. I should add that my family is not one of those wealthier ones; my parents both worked long hours and extra jobs, and I got dumped in awful, spirit-crushing childcare most of my youth. At any rate, a nurturing environment does TYPICALLY cost money. (4) The average income of a Jordanian is $200 per month. With that amount, Jordanian families, although usually large, can afford to provide for all the basic necessities. In addition, most have satellite TV and many have their own cars. All that nonwithstanding, Jordan is a poor country - though the gap between Jordanians and, say, Americans in terms of both wealth and intelligence is HUGE. As is the gap between Jordanians and survivalists. (5) I've seen people pounding the earth with sticks for food. I've also seen these people: http://www.deere.com/en_GB/forestry/forestry_equipment/product_development/research.html . I guarantee you the bulk of the people running that have servants. (6) re "I get the impression from your statements that you believe all the poor to be of low intelligence in your Arab countries, as well as other poor countries." No. I believe most of them are, but that's beside the point. As far as this argument's concerned, I believe that ON AVERAGE Arabs are not as intelligent as Americans ON AVERAGE. That means, suppose the following Arabs score the following scores on a totally made up intelligence test: AHMAD - 8 MOHAMMAD - 10 HAMD - 2 TAMER - 4 SULTAN - 7 ...and the following Americans score these scores on the same made-up test: JOHN - 9 GARY - 9 STU - 2 VIRGIL - 5 LORENZO - 7 ...then ON AVERAGE Arabs have an intelligence of 6.2 and Americans have an intelligence of 6.4. This is what I believe to be the case. Does that mean Mohammad isn't smarter than all the Americans tested? No. Does it even mean that more Americans scored higher than 6 on the test than Arabs? No. That's all I'm saying. Sorry to belabor this, but poets seem to have a hard time getting averages. (7) The poor settlers coming to America probably innovated so much because almost immediately upon arriving in America they became much better off than they had been in their home countries. Keep in mind that they didn't innovate more than people today innovate; they just innovated more than other people at their time innovated. (8) I don't understand the rest of your comment (or see how it relates much to our topic.) I hope this explains my position better. Thanks for taking the time to debate! zodiac
Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/2:39 PM
My little bro will be one of the first camped out for Championship tickets. Give him hell.
Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/2:38 PM
Aside from endlessly fantasizing about meeting Dovina, I've never really considered meeting another poemranker user. Maybe you'll be the first. But whatever would we talk about?
Re: a comment on Bri's Room (not done) by Sunshine Conkey	13-Dec-05/2:36 PM
A more powerful stupidity, certainly. A stockbroker makes a bad decision and people starve. Tim Burton remakes a great old movie and people suffer. It's a terrible burden, wealth, I'm sure.
Re: a comment on Bri's Room (not done) by Sunshine Conkey	13-Dec-05/2:28 PM
That's all well and good, and I'm as egotist (or egoist, I always forget which,) as the next guy. But what would you say if I suggested that your future is very much in the hands of those people you refuse to feed? (Don't believe me? What are you paying for gas recently?) What if the odds are very high that you or someone you know will be blown up by some worthless guy you didn't hand out to? Are handouts justfied if they might prevent that?
Re: a comment on Bri's Room (not done) by Sunshine Conkey	13-Dec-05/1:18 PM
Obviously IQ tests are biased for writing (and for white Western males!) However, how else are you going to define intelligence besides, 'the thing that intelligence tests measure'? Be sure to make your result empirically testable and measurable. SOME CHICK USER: Testing and measuring is SO white, Western male! ZODIAC: Yes, but without empiricism things tend to get sort of squishy around here. SOME CHICK USER: We like squishy! ZODIAC: That's fine. But the moment you thought you could handle a systematic argument on the matter, you chucked your hat in the ring of empiricism. You can't get out now. No, wait, you can. And should. Just say, Out, out, and rub your hands with an obsessive scrubbing motion.
Re: a comment on Oh Merry Fay (part 1) by ALChemy	13-Dec-05/1:10 PM
Yes. But I'm still getting Irish, mostly.
Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/1:09 PM
My littlest brother is an Engineering junior at UNCC. What's with all the North Carolinians all of a sudden? PS-As of Jan 4 I'm an Alaskan. I'll send you all bear claw necklaces.
Re: a comment on Oh Merry Fay (part 1) by ALChemy	13-Dec-05/11:07 AM
Oh. Cool. Reading it with Jabberwocky in mind, I can see where you got the rhythm, rhyme, and a lot of the structure. Odd that I didn't see it until I was told, though. Extra points for that.
Re: a comment on CHRISTMAS EVERYDAY by amanda_dcosta	13-Dec-05/10:55 AM
Don't be too hard on her, Amanda. Dovina came here a few years ago with a bunch of ideas about religion nobody else could accept. And though I'd like to think most of the old-time poemranker users have matured since then, I get the feeling sometimes that Dovina's still hurt by her first experiences here, and a little bitter. Anyway, I hope you find the rest of us here aren't such religion-snobs. Or such people-snobs.
Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/10:32 AM
So I guess this comment means the wealth=intelligence argument is over?
Re: a comment on War (edit) by zodiac	13-Dec-05/10:30 AM
I'm in Charlotte. I spent eight of the last 9 years in Cullowhee, Sylva and Maggie Valley. If you know these places, please kindly don't let on to poemranker how invariably hole-like their colleges are.
Re: a comment on The Third Fall Of Jesus by amanda_dcosta	13-Dec-05/10:25 AM
My, but you're smug.
Re: a comment on Indian Song by ALChemy	13-Dec-05/9:46 AM
I'm sure mine engages Arabs more than his does.
Re: a comment on Bri's Room (not done) by Sunshine Conkey	13-Dec-05/9:41 AM
Perhaps I've made it sound like I'm saying financial good fortune is the only cause of intelligence, or only people from well-off backgrounds are intelligent, or no poor people are. I'm saying none of these things. It is, however, easily proveable that (1) on average, people from wealthier backgrounds score higher IQs than people from poorer backgrounds, (2) education has a direct influence on IQ scores, even though IQ is supposed to test some natural intelligence separate from mere learned information or skills. That's not a particularly pleasant (or even useful) thing to say. But it's true. I see no basis for saying bad fortune causes intelligence. I've lived among all kinds of poor, middle-class, and upper-class people, and not seen any extra intelligence on the parts of poorer peoples. From personal experience I can tell you the only thing keeping 90% of Arabs alive right now is stubborn adherence to traditional ways of doing things - ways modern Arabs have no intelligence, or understanding, about. Anyway, I've seen the studies. The differences continue right across the board. I think we can agree we're not talking about KNOWLEDGE (ie, long division, or the elusive capital of North Dakota); we're talking about intelligence, which *should* be (and mostly is) a measure of problem-solving, critical-thinking, and pattern-finding abilities, among other things distinct from knowledge. These shouldn't be affected by standardized education, but they are. Wealthier people have greater access to education; ergo, higher IQ on average. Comfort is the greatest promoter of innovation. Otherwise, how is America (and, specifically, moderately well-off America) the leader in every kind of innovation, while NO poor country or culture has innovated anything of note since fire? Yes, America has more resources and opener social norms pushing for innovation, but how did America get those resources and norms. Mostly by innovation. On another track, I bet you'd be hard-pressed to name 5 political, artistic, or technological innovators who weren't from well-off backgrounds, if not well-off at the time of their innovations. I don't have the figures with me, but if I were forced to guess (at gunpoint, natch,) I'd say the statistical difference between various income levels' IQs is greater than the difference across genetic lines. Otherwise, how do you explain that America (ie, the most diverse genetic pool ever) is more intelligent by every measure than, say, Japan (ie, a more-or-less homogenous group proven to be genetically inclined toward intelligence)? I don't agree with any of the rest of your comment, for reasons which should be obvious. Making a point with Ayn Rand? That's shaky. Very shaky.
Re: a comment on The Third Fall Of Jesus by amanda_dcosta	13-Dec-05/8:12 AM
Sorry, I just answered my own question.
Re: a comment on The Third Fall Of Jesus by amanda_dcosta	13-Dec-05/8:11 AM
Then why'd Jesus make him such a hapless cripple?
Re: Oh Merry Fay (part 1) by ALChemy	13-Dec-05/8:09 AM
This reads like a Mondegreen, I don't know of what. On the surface it's, um, entrancing. As far as punctuation, drop the periods at the ends of lines 1, 3, 4, s2line3, s4line3, s7line4. Add periods s2line5 and s5line7. You might also consider a comma at the end of s2line3, s3line4, s4line3. Other than that, I'm afraid to comment, though I feel like you might have meant "snared" instead of "snarred", "Their" instead of "They're" in the same stanza, and another word besides "girthly". But who am I to say? 8th generation Irish-American, that's what.