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You Have It Backwards (Free verse) by LilMsLadyPoet
You state that wealthy countries, such as America, contain people with higher IQ's by virtue of the fact that higher wealth creates higher IQ's. You state, as evidence, that poor countries produce no new innovations, and therefore have lower IQ's. I take exception to the assumption in 1). I came from a 'poor' family, but I also come from a line of people with IQ's qualifying for MENSA/ women of MENSA. My mother was on welfare while getting her Masters. Clearly, being poor didn't lower our IQ's, and I venture to submit that no amount of wealth could raise the IQ's of the ignoramics that live down the street from me. 2.) IQ scoring is subjective; I think we can agree. Being poor does not keep one from learning. Having money does not bestow intellegence. You say, “problem-solving, critical-thinking, and pattern-finding abilities, among other things distinct from knowledge. These shouldn't be affected by standardized education, but they are." It is also affected by early childhood exposure, which can and does come from providing children with stimulating, nurturing environments, which does not cost money. As to your comments about poor countries, I said the exception would be people who are literally living in survivalist mode. It is the will to live better, to solve problems of hardship and discomfort that give rise to invention. If a man sits in wealth, waited on by servants, fed through no effort or thought of his own, where is his motivation to improve farming machinery? One the other hand, if a man toiled for his food, in his own fields, and uses a stick to pound holes into the dirt, it is him that would look for a way to do such a thing easier or better, that would take a scrap piece of metal he finds, and fashion it into a nifty drill, or attach it to a log of wood, and hook that log to a mule to be pulled through the soil to make a furrow. The man with his servants, feeding him food he does not toil for, has no need to think of these things. Of course, the absolutely starving man would just be out there 24/7 looking for a plant, grub, or root to eat, and would have to use his time/energy to get enough to eat...but he would have to THINK of a better way to do so, if he planned to survive for any length of time. His struggle would prod him to find a better, easier way. His discomfort being his motivating factor. His environment would dictate that he get inventive and gain knowledge of his environment, or perish. Necessity breeds invention. People struggling to survive are busy trying to survive; that does not mean they do not have the intelligence to innovate, it just means that they do not have the time to pursue such things, nor the power to share their inventions with the world, in order to get credit for them. I get the impression from your statements that you believe all the poor to be of low intelligence in your Arab countries, as well as other poor countries. Consider that every immigrant that first came to this country was poor; most of them were not educated. How then could you explain their inventions and innovations, based on your premises? I submit that it was the freedom and ability to succeed or to fail, and to be responsible for your own welfare, to eat the fruit of your own labor, which gave rise to the inventions that made their toil easier and more productive. That wealth you speak of was MADE and EARNED from the intelligence of many people, from all kinds of poor countries, applied concretely, in the form of inventions and innovations, applied to their environments, which demanded they think or fail. Think or not. Apply their God-given intelligence or perish! 'Not having' brought the necessity of intellegent action that bred the invention that created the wealth. That seems simple to understand. Those countries that do not use their intelligence, that do not allow the freedom from terror, that create an environment in which people must live in survivalist mode, they are what stunt intelligence’s creative environment. If I might die tomorrow, why should I extend the energy to create anything today? For what?! I will not have tomorrow to improve upon! Freedom to act, and not being acted upon in a hostile environment is necessary for a man to be creative within his intelligence. You counted the man's coins, and decided this bought him the education that gave him his intellegence. You have it backwards. His freedom to use his intellegence in a non-hostile environment made him seek knowledge and education, and together he used them to create inventions and innovations, that then led to his wealth, in a country that allowed him the right to the wealth he earned.

Up the ladder: Plurals
Down the ladder: 03/30/04

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Arithmetic Mean: 5.285714
Weighted score: 5.0768404
Overall Rank: 6512
Posted: December 13, 2005 12:12 PM PST; Last modified: December 13, 2005 12:12 PM PST
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Comments:
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 | 13-Dec-05/3:20 PM | Reply
(1) None of us has denied that there are very intelligent poor people and very stupid rich people. Personally, I'm glad you're smart. Our real difference of opinion is I hold that ON AVERAGE wealthy people are more intelligent than poor people ON AVERAGE. You've offered nothing to dispute that.

(2) Naturally, IQ scoring is subjective. AlChemy and I have already pointed out how in the original string. I disagree with your other points in (2), for reasons I've already given.

(3) But richer families are proven to be better at providing "stimulating, nurturing environments" ON AVERAGE. Again, I'm glad you had a good environment. But wealthier families are better able to afford an unemployed (or constantly available) parent, a nanny, or good childcare and preschool, while poorer families, traditionally, can't. I should add that my family is not one of those wealthier ones; my parents both worked long hours and extra jobs, and I got dumped in awful, spirit-crushing childcare most of my youth. At any rate, a nurturing environment does TYPICALLY cost money.

(4) The average income of a Jordanian is $200 per month. With that amount, Jordanian families, although usually large, can afford to provide for all the basic necessities. In addition, most have satellite TV and many have their own cars. All that nonwithstanding, Jordan is a poor country - though the gap between Jordanians and, say, Americans in terms of both wealth and intelligence is HUGE. As is the gap between Jordanians and survivalists.

(5) I've seen people pounding the earth with sticks for food. I've also seen these people: http://www.deere.com/en_GB/forestry/forestry_equipment/product_development/research.html . I guarantee you the bulk of the people running that have servants.

(6) re "I get the impression from your statements that you believe all the poor to be of low intelligence in your Arab countries, as well as other poor countries."

No. I believe most of them are, but that's beside the point. As far as this argument's concerned, I believe that ON AVERAGE Arabs are not as intelligent as Americans ON AVERAGE. That means, suppose the following Arabs score the following scores on a totally made up intelligence test:

AHMAD - 8
MOHAMMAD - 10
HAMD - 2
TAMER - 4
SULTAN - 7

...and the following Americans score these scores on the same made-up test:

JOHN - 9
GARY - 9
STU - 2
VIRGIL - 5
LORENZO - 7

...then ON AVERAGE Arabs have an intelligence of 6.2 and Americans have an intelligence of 6.4. This is what I believe to be the case. Does that mean Mohammad isn't smarter than all the Americans tested? No. Does it even mean that more Americans scored higher than 6 on the test than Arabs? No. That's all I'm saying. Sorry to belabor this, but poets seem to have a hard time getting averages.

(7) The poor settlers coming to America probably innovated so much because almost immediately upon arriving in America they became much better off than they had been in their home countries. Keep in mind that they didn't innovate more than people today innovate; they just innovated more than other people at their time innovated.

(8) I don't understand the rest of your comment (or see how it relates much to our topic.) I hope this explains my position better. Thanks for taking the time to debate!

zodiac
[0] Dovina @ 17.255.240.206 | 13-Dec-05/3:44 PM | Reply
If you wish to debate zodiac, and I must admit he's strangly nonsensical game sometimes, please do not do it by posting a "poem." I gave you a 0, not because your areguments are bad (They are pretty good) but because it is not a poem.

Thanks for listening.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > Dovina | 13-Dec-05/4:24 PM | Reply
No!!! You're going to make her delete it. That's it, I'm multiple-tenning her.
[0] Dovina @ 17.255.240.206 > zodiac | 13-Dec-05/4:26 PM | Reply
Alright, LilMsLadyPoet, please don't delete it. And please don't do it again.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > Dovina | 13-Dec-05/6:34 PM | Reply
I suppose you think that's getting me back for my comment about you on amanda_dcosta's poem. You have to admit, that was pretty fucking funny.
[0] Dovina @ 17.255.240.206 > zodiac | 13-Dec-05/6:38 PM | Reply
Again, you suppose I retaliate. Sometimes yes. This time no.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.43 > Dovina | 14-Dec-05/11:47 AM | Reply
Okay, I promise to write it in some semblence of a poetry format, next time.
Perhaps we should peruse the under-utilized chat function built in to this site. And, you are right, about Zodiac making people itch to debate his statements and quotes!
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > LilMsLadyPoet | 14-Dec-05/4:43 PM | Reply
I don't care much about people debating. I occasionally care if people have half-baked ideas, especially if they're pretending to be poets at the time. You wouldn't want me going around talking silly in the name of your chosen profession, would you?
[0] Dovina @ 209.242.149.240 > zodiac | 15-Dec-05/2:22 PM | Reply
Half-baked ideas are the ingredients for profound inovations. Even if most of them crumble, the good ones have so much potential that none should be crushed merely for half-bakedness. Roll out the dough, let it rise!
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > Dovina | 15-Dec-05/2:25 PM | Reply
So what you're saying is half-baked ideas are great when, and only when, they become fully baked. Good one.
[0] Dovina @ 209.242.149.240 > zodiac | 15-Dec-05/2:34 PM | Reply
No, half-baked ideas are always good, and might turn into fully-baked good ideas. So don't throw them out just because they're half-baked.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > Dovina | 15-Dec-05/3:16 PM | Reply
No one here has suggested that.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > zodiac | 15-Dec-05/9:46 PM | Reply
Half-baked is better than just yeast sitting there on the shelf with all its glory of potentiality slowly dying, next to the flour.
[n/a] wilco @ 24.92.74.122 | 13-Dec-05/4:31 PM | Reply
That's a super story and you make some good points. However, you've got a couple of plot holes here.

1) Why was your mother on welfare while getting her Masters? I don't presume to know your family's situation, but why didn't she get a job?

2) You first present the option that people create and invent out of necessity. Then, later, you state that people who "might die tomorrow" won't do that. Do we all not cower under the possibility that we might die tomorrow?




[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > wilco | 15-Dec-05/9:43 PM | Reply
Good questions.
1>Homemaker: intellegent but not educated for employment/divorce/100 a month child support for 4 girls/back to school full-time & pregnant with 5th/ welfare& educational grants/Masters earned/worked/started own business.(WE two eldest girls did work, outside the home and inside to raise kids.)
2>"Those countries that do not use their intelligence, that do not allow the freedom from terror, that create an environment in which people must live in survivalist mode, they are what stunt intelligence’s creative environment. If I might die tomorrow, why should I extend the energy to create anything today? For what?! I will not have tomorrow to improve upon! Freedom to act, and not being acted upon in a hostile environment is necessary for a man to be creative within his intelligence."
(I was speaking about war-torn or famine-ravaged countries where absolute survivalist mode must take over, and where the terror and horrors of reality stunt the intellectual and creative capacity of its citizens. I do not think this is in the same context as the general fear "cower(ing) under the possibility that (they) might die tomorrow.", that I presume you to mean of all mankind's awareness of death, in general.
Free of terror, horror, and immediate danger man will use his intellegence to invent and innovate, according to his needs, motivated by his drive for more efficiency in his work and less labor having to be expended on specific tasks that must be performed, in order to have more time to pursue other goals and tasks.
I submit that a man must have a right to his property and the reward of his labor, if he is to remain motivated to invent, innovate, and produce.
It is through the trial of 'doing' that a man finds inefficiencies and then seeks to find better ways of doing the things he does. Thus, discomfort and some hardship or failure is the motivating factor behind one putting their intellegence to work in the form of invention and innovation. It is through finding what does not work that one looks for new ways of doing things.


[n/a] wilco @ 24.92.74.122 > LilMsLadyPoet | 16-Dec-05/3:56 PM | Reply
1) Am I wrong in thinking that you have to have a Bachelor's Degree before you go to grad school? That's what they told me and I'm gonna be pissd If I found I I could have gotten here straight out of high school. I'm not trying to say anything bad about your mother (Lord knows that's just not right), but I'm just trying to figure this out.

2) People in America are scared every day..Have you been to an inner city housing project lately? Many of these people have no food, no heat, no water and any second a stray bullet could come through the window and take off the top of Little Billy's head. You wouldn't believe the things that these people come up with to make it through...from popping out babies like a Pez dispenser to get more welfare to making crap out of garbage and selling it to the white folks who think it's quaint. The point is that, people will invent regardless of their socioeconomic status and regardless of their freedom from "terror, horror and immediate harm".
[2] nentwined @ 64.60.192.131 | 13-Dec-05/4:37 PM | Reply
boring.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 | 13-Dec-05/4:38 PM | Reply
PS-From the other string:

LilMsLadyPoet: I'm sorry, but when I see the words 'socialism and civic responsibility'...'institutions' that 'collectively' mandate you help a worthless neighbor, that you OWE something to anybody who has his hand out, that your sweat, labour, and reward should be used to raise 'the collective' of people needing your assistance...well...I stop listening. Responsible citizenship, to me, does not mean "responsible to and for the citizens".

zodiac: That's all well and good, and I'm as egotist (or egoist, I always forget which,) as the next guy. But what would you say if I suggested that your future is very much in the hands of those people you refuse to feed? (Don't believe me? What are you paying for gas recently?)

What if the odds are very high that you or someone you know will be blown up by some worthless guy you didn't hand out to? Are handouts justfied if they might prevent that?

I'd very much like to hear your answer.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > zodiac | 15-Dec-05/9:48 PM | Reply
Zodiac, I replied there in that string. And I would venture to say it is worth a read.
[n/a] wilco @ 24.92.74.122 | 13-Dec-05/4:41 PM | Reply
RE: I'm sorry, but when I see the words 'socialism and civic responsibility'...'institutions' that 'collectively' mandate you help a worthless neighbor, that you OWE something to anybody who has his hand out, that your sweat, labour, and reward should be used to raise 'the collective' of people needing your assistance...well...I stop listening. Responsible citizenship, to me, does not mean "responsible to and for the citizens".


Exactly what do you think welfare is?
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > wilco | 15-Dec-05/9:59 PM | Reply
Might I submit
a new form of social responsibilty
a new way of approaching
the care of those who need
a hand up
as opposed to a hand out?
Let the man who values
the one of need
support those efforts
of those he values.
Let each man choose
those he would support,
what efforts he would fund,
what cause he would hear.
Let those that 'have'
decide to help those who 'have not'.
Do not demand that I help him,
and I will not demand that you don't.
Help him if it pleases you
if you see his worth,
I will not stop you,
for what you own is yours alone.
I will help those who are of worth to me.
You will help those whom you value.
Together we will lift those that will rise,
and those not fit
will fall.
I will feed children
and supply them with books;
you will help build bridges
and reroute bubbling brooks.
Together we'll build a world
of value for value,
worth upon worth.

[3] lmp @ 141.154.134.3 > LilMsLadyPoet | 4-Jan-06/7:17 AM | Reply
a beautiful vision. sadly, i don't think it would ever work. the ones getting a "hand up" would become pawns in the endgame between the ones giving the (yes) "handouts".
[3] lmp @ 141.154.134.3 > wilco | 4-Jan-06/7:15 AM | Reply
roger that, wilsco.

seriously, responsible citizenship starts with responsibility to oneself and one's family. then, it may spread a bit at a time IF AND ONLY IF IT DOES NOT JEOPARDIZE ONE'S SELF AND FAMILY.
the social worker/volunteer that runs around feeding and sheltering the "less fortunate" but spends no time with their own kids and wonders why little Billy grows up committing crimes and doing drugs is just substituting the problem from one individual to another. they are not doing anyone any favors.
likewise, the people that are able to use "the system" to get by are not really getting a leg up on anyone except the working class folks that are paying the most (proportionately) into that very system. yeah the playing field gets levelled: the middle class people are sinking while the folks getting welfare are able to drive "pimped out" Lexuses. meanwhile, the so called "upper class" keep on getting wealthier and wealthier.
i am sorry, but social responsibility, can kiss my backside. i saw the result of socialist society in post-wall east germany. not a pretty sight. and they all thought they were better off because they got a fat check from the "new government" that allowed them to buy brand new cars. no real change.
the fact that the wall fell is testament to the inability for a truly socialist society to exist. it goes against human nature, i guess.
[10] zodiac @ 209.193.9.200 > lmp | 5-Jan-06/9:47 AM | Reply
Q: What can we do to bring about world peace?

MOTHER TERESA: Go home and love your family.
[n/a] amanda_dcosta @ 203.145.159.37 | 13-Dec-05/11:12 PM | Reply
Excuse me, but is this a poem or an essay. Try putting the same matter in poetic form. It will be more creative while still emphasing your point on the debate.
[n/a] amanda_dcosta @ 203.145.159.44 | 14-Dec-05/1:25 AM | Reply
well, its been interesting reading about the debate on intelligence and richness. while, zodiacs point on a higher IQ score in america is a possibilty as it has been shown that with higher levels of education there is a rise in IQ. HOWEVER that in no way can be equated to success. Its been shown that people with higher EQs(emotional quotient) do much better than people with higher IQs be it in a financial sense or in a social sense.
Again equating the fact that americans have a higher IQ and thats why they are more successful or will be more successful as compared to the rest of the world also does not make sense. Civilizations have risen and fallen. The american led civilization is just another spike in the march of time. COMPARED to the great civilizations that rose from other places, america is only a few hundred years old. Time will flow on and other civilizations will rise and fall. Its funny how IQ shifts with the time.
I believe all people are basically equal but wealth does give you a chance to develop your intelligence, however that in no way guarantees you a good future. I believe human desperation and plain old luck plays a great part in human future. Everytime people have been forced to start from scratch and fight their way up, they generally produce tougher civilisations. While richer places have fallen down, with greed and decadence slowly eating out their souls. This has been one of the lessons of time.
To push this debate into more irrelevance i believe that america will continue to lead the world for some period in the future but as time goes on and the forces of globilisation will push the world together, a period of increased co-dependence will begin. As man push on to the stars the next great civilsations will begin there for the people who venture forth willl be more desperate and innovate better than the people of earth, IQ not being a factor. Remember necessity is the mother of all inventions, and not IQ.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > amanda_dcosta | 15-Dec-05/10:04 PM | Reply
Remember necessity is the mother of all inventions-
well, that sums MY the thought.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.206 > LilMsLadyPoet | 15-Dec-05/10:06 PM | Reply
sums up MY thought, rather...even.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > LilMsLadyPoet | 16-Dec-05/5:37 AM | Reply
Surely, even you can see that it sums up SOMEBODY ELSE'S thought.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.139.10 > zodiac | 16-Dec-05/2:57 PM | Reply
Surely, one can embrace the quote and say that it sums up one's own thought. I was simply saying that I agree with the quote.
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > LilMsLadyPoet | 16-Dec-05/3:12 PM | Reply
You've spent the last three days railing against the evils of socialism, but you can't come up with an individualistic way of expressing your mind? The phrase of the people is good enough for you? That's as communist as anything I've seen on this site.
[10] sliver @ 172.197.161.73 | 16-Dec-05/9:28 AM | Reply
I guess you can call essays poetry now huh? I don't know, you see, I'm porr also.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.139.10 > sliver | 16-Dec-05/3:06 PM | Reply
No, next time I promised to put it in a form that could loosely be refered to as poetry. I just did not want to continue the discussion within the string of someone else's poem, where the discussion started. I did a no-no , apparently, by posting this as a poem, but since I did, we are discussing the subject here.
See, I didn't KNOW the rules, because I too am without good fortune and money, therefore I have less intellegence (on average), than wealthier people...or so Zodiac has informed me. I guess we all need to get more money if we want our IQ's to rise, then we could be inventors and innovators:)
[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > LilMsLadyPoet | 16-Dec-05/3:15 PM | Reply
"I have less intellegence (on average)" makes me think you haven't gotten what I'm saying about averages (or intelligence) after all. Same goes for "we all need to get more money if we want our IQ's to rise". Yes, you could say 'I'm being silly', but it would really help if you'd shown us you could answer seriously first.
[n/a] LilMsLadyPoet @ 207.69.137.41 > zodiac | 3-Jan-06/2:29 PM | Reply
Zodiac,
You said that you refer to facts, and that I just state what I wish were true. You also said to show you proof that a study can be found to support any assumption. I will be fair, and offer proof of what I believe the studies show, as well as some studies that proport to support what you have to say. From what I have gathered, the studies you seem to have based your assumptions on have been refuted by later studies. I will provide links here, for those who wish to study this further.I assure you that as soon as you read one statement and are sure it has the facts, you will find another that contraindicts it.
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html
http://www.vdare.com/misc/rushton_iq.htm
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/tbc01.html
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/intelligence.html **
http://www.mensa.org.uk/mensa/global/resource.html
http://www.tip.duke.edu/resources/parenting_tips/instruments.html
http://www.biology.duke.edu/rausher/lec23_05.html
http://www.biology.duke.edu/rausher/Kamin.pdf
http://www.alumni.tip.duke.edu/newsletter/2002june/article04.html
http://www.volkmar-weiss.de/table.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010610giftediqsidereg8.asp






[10] zodiac @ 69.132.67.140 > LilMsLadyPoet | 16-Dec-05/5:50 PM | Reply
"It's a myth to think I don't know what's going on. It's a myth to think that I'm not aware that there's opinions that don't agree with mine, because I'm fully aware of that."

—George W. Bush
Philadelphia, PA
Dec 12, 2005
[3] lmp @ 141.154.134.3 > zodiac | 4-Jan-06/7:20 AM | Reply
hey, there's a good candidate for the wealthy being intelligent.

(please hear the heavy sarcasm)
[3] lmp @ 141.154.134.3 | 4-Jan-06/6:59 AM | Reply
you use a lot of words to convey your premise, but if it is - as i suspect - a rant, that is forgivable.

i also think that one point hidden in there is that a certain amount of wealth (somewhere between wealth and poverty, shall we say middle class?) allows for leisure time. it can be said that those with intelligence tend to spend their leisure time in some sort of artistic or inventive pursuit, thereby bearing the fruits of intelligence. the one who must constantly struggle (work several jobs to make ends meet, forage for food and shelter) will have very little spare time to bend their mind to "leisurely" pusuits.

i agree that wealth does not beget intelligence. however, being of humble means myself, i do recognize that wealth does open many, many doors of opportunity to those who can pay for it. alternatively, as one who is neither minority nor immigrant nor poor nor female, i do see that in my country many who come here are offered more opportunity with fewer "strings attached" than i would ever be offered. does that mean they are more or less intelligent than i? more or less fortunate than i? or just more qualified to receive assistance than i because of many convoluted and - in my eyes - unjust principles that define our government.

but to get back to your essay (?), i think it could benefit from more clearly constructed ideas and more succinct phrasing. in general, i do lean toward your side of the debate.
[n/a] Ranger @ 86.152.54.236 | 27-Aug-07/2:14 PM | Reply
Why have you removed all your poemes?
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