poemranker ::Father’s Day by Dovina

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Free verse № 127446

Father’s Day

by Dovina

Member since 2004 · Posted 19 Jun 2005 · Edited 20 Jun 2005 · 33 comments

Let every man who ever had a father Consider: I knew a man who, when old, grew bitter when young, he forgave As he aged, he complained when young, content The older he got, the more he criticized when young, he encouraged When old he revealed his core

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33 comments

[6] deleted user 19-Jun-05/6:58 PM Reply
Most men don't have to consider, they simply see what's happening with dad...
On the other hand; the son is always convinced he will NOT become his father, he'll do better. So the idea that his own core also will be revealed in the end, escapes him.

Interesting musings, but also disappointing, as a poem. Don't know why precisely.
The 'complained/content' antithesis jars somewhat.
[n/a] Dovina › deleted user 19-Jun-05/7:01 PM Reply
I want it to jar - not just that line, but all of it.

The son does not have to become like his father. I believe the core of a man can improve.
[6] deleted user › Dovina 19-Jun-05/7:18 PM Reply
Then jar it will...
I have a lot of reasons not to become my father. I'm doing different all right, nevertheless I'm like him more and more each day. I hate it, and can't do anything about it.
It's not just a father/son thing, for women it goes as well. But their aversion is less strong.
[n/a] Dovina › deleted user 19-Jun-05/7:24 PM Reply
I think it's a tendency for men and women to get cynical and bitter as they age. I think it's an avoidable trap, and avoiding it leads to a happier old age.
[3] Bankrupt_Word_Clerk › Dovina 19-Jun-05/7:27 PM Reply
Caught up in worrying about dying, and coping with change in all aspects of culture and technology, never helped anyone's disposition... but I agree that it is an avoidable trap.
[n/a] Dovina › Bankrupt_Word_Clerk 19-Jun-05/7:36 PM Reply
I think "worrying about dying" is often at the core of the trap, and synicism is often its symptom.
[6] deleted user › Dovina 19-Jun-05/8:27 PM Reply
I wished I hadn't read this.
[n/a] Dovina › deleted user 19-Jun-05/8:51 PM Reply
I doubt that, really. Head-in-sand is not your style. Or maybe you disagree with it.
[6] deleted user › Dovina 20-Jun-05/4:30 PM Reply
I'm not fond of mirrors.
[3] Bankrupt_Word_Clerk 19-Jun-05/7:17 PM Reply
I disagree with your premise. I am sorry you aren't aware of many old men that don't fit this stereotype.

I'll try not to write about a woman's relationship with her mother to avoid the same trap.
[6] deleted user › Bankrupt_Word_Clerk 19-Jun-05/7:20 PM Reply
Manilow already wrote the mother/daughter poem to end all mother/daughter poems; Sandra.
[n/a] Dovina › Bankrupt_Word_Clerk 19-Jun-05/7:22 PM Reply
You are right in saying that many old men do not meet this stereotype. Many avoid the trap of becoming bitter and critical as they age.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 20-Jun-05/5:46 AM Reply
So many, in fact, that you're really not writing about men-in-general at all. You're just writing about a few guys and it's a shame you started the poem with "Let every man who ever had a father consider".

In short, I'm with everyone who says this doesn't track. Sure, most guys probably go through bitter periods (for me it'll be right around the time I realize I can't be a spaceman when I grow up) but get over it in time for a nice benevolent dotage. Right before they step out in front of the speeding bus.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 20-Jun-05/11:38 AM Reply
I have been around enough bitter old men to believe that the condition is not a small minority. It's a major concern, or should be, for all men as they age, and women too. The point of this poem is to arouse awareness, so that any aging man who observes himself becoming bitter, can realize that he is falling into a trap, and that he has options.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 21-Jun-05/3:08 AM Reply
How - or how long, or how successfully - can one avoid one's "core"?
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 21-Jun-05/9:33 AM Reply
Your regular therapist is not in today, so let me try.
Don't avoid it. Look at it.
No thanks needed. See my secretary on your way out.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 23-Jun-05/12:45 AM Reply
That's exactly what I'm saying. The point of the poem isn't that he can look at the bitterness, complaininess, and critical side of himself and change it (ie, avoid, in your words, "falling into a trap".) The point of your poem, whether you mean it or not, is that the bitterness, etc, IS his core and therefore unavoidable.

That's why I ask, how does one avoid one's "core"? Maybe it would be better to ask, Can one change one's "core"? And if he can, it's not much of a core, is it?

All this is kind of moot for me; I don't believe in cores. And I don't think you mean it the way I'm reading it. But I think that's why everyone's pissed about this one. I think they read it the same way.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 23-Jun-05/11:16 AM Reply
Whatever the “core” of a man is, it is something that you and I are defining differently, perhaps reflecting a basic difference in our views of human nature. You say it’s unchangeable; I say the mind has power over it to change it. By noticing the symptoms of a bitter core in early old-age, a man or a woman can take action. I believe we change the way old age is spent. The key is look at one’s self, to be aware.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 24-Jun-05/6:44 AM Reply
That's fine, but I think most people reading this poem are looking at "core" as something essential and unchangeable in a person, and that's why they're bothered.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 24-Jun-05/8:39 AM Reply
Yes, it can be taken that way, and to some degree I intend it so in order to jar people. The fact that they dispute having an unchangable and ugly core is a step in the right direction.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 26-Jun-05/2:33 AM Reply
Oh, I see. You see your role as poet to say offensive untrue things about people and then count on other people's being decent enough to say the right things in reaction. You're the Chris Rock of poetry.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 27-Jun-05/11:40 AM Reply
As I tried to make you see earlier, this is not about what you say it is. Rahter it's about my use of the word "core" and the various menaings people have attached to it. Since the word is not defined in the way any of us are using it, it's not surprising to find many interpretations. That's a long way from saying "offensive untrue things about people." Are you now returning to your old offensive, word-twisting self?
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 30-Jun-05/2:55 AM Reply
I know, I know. I've been trying to say, MOST people see "core" as meaning something like what I'm saying (that is, an unchangeable, essential part of something.) There's not "many interpretations" except yours and everybody else's. I'm not trying to be offensive, and I can totally understand your point that "core" used loosely CAN be defined a number of ways.

As far as "saying offensive untrue things" goes, your comment of 24-Jun makes it sound like you (to some extent) mean "core" to mean unchangeable and essential - and, by extension, to suggest the old man is bitter and critical to his core - in order to encourage people to dispute it. In other words, it sounds like you're at some level deliberately claiming old people are unchangeably selfish and bitter, which you know to be untrue and offensive to old people and people who like old people. So it's not such a long way.

I am not aware of twisting anyone's words in this comment, seriously.
[n/a] Dovina › zodiac 30-Jun-05/7:16 AM Reply
That’s a good explanation of your position — that I said things I believe to be untrue in order to jar people. That’s still a long way from saying "offensive untrue things about people." Since the poem is about a hypothetical man as far as anyone reading it on poemranker knows, it should only be offensive if he sees within himself a bitter core. Then he might be jarred into saying it’s not true. If so, my purpose is partly accomplished.
[n/a] zodiac › Dovina 3-Jul-05/6:40 AM Reply
This is the part of every discussion we have, where, whatever I've objected to, you say 'no this is just about one specific person', and then I have no answer. That's how we know the conversation's over. Good.
[n/a] Blue Magpie 19-Jun-05/10:44 PM Reply
This is undoubtedly the worst thing of yours I have ever read. The content is a highly erroneous sweeping statement and the form is nothing really.
[7] Joshua_Tree 20-Jun-05/10:31 AM Reply
This is didactic and you broke rhythm a the end with no effect. It would have been better if the poem balanced the positives of age against the negatives, presenting the young reader with the opportunity to choose what kind of old man he will be (and older readers the opportunity to re-evaluate their choices).
[n/a] Dovina › Joshua_Tree 20-Jun-05/11:39 AM Reply
Wouldn't that make it even more didactic?
[3] Bankrupt_Word_Clerk › Dovina 20-Jun-05/11:46 AM Reply
a poem that intends to teach isn't by its nature a bad thing.
[n/a] Dovina › Bankrupt_Word_Clerk 20-Jun-05/12:02 PM Reply
Agreed. But I think that in poetry it's better to show the thing with a story or a description, such as I tried to do in describing this man.
[10] Prince of Void 21-Jun-05/2:10 PM Reply
Dazzling like a gothic star *********
[n/a] Dental Panic 21-Jun-05/2:35 PM Reply
I don't think this is a poem. It's more like a sermon.
A poem has at least two faces. A sermon only one.
[7] Joshua_Tree 28-Jun-05/11:55 AM Reply
Subsequent reads turned up more posibilities than I had noticed at first.