Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	zodiac 204.238.24.4	14-Mar-06/2:20 PM
Considering that your comprehension doesn't include rules and logic, Dovina, it seems perfectly possible that God could be logical and, therefore, incomprehensible to you. re: "The strange thing about people who say that a good god would not allow suffering is that they usually also say, 'the human race is, on the whole, intelligent and capable of solving its problems.'" Who says both of those things? Certainly not me. In fact, in my experience, people seem to say either one or the other. In short, you are so full of beans you make my eyes hurt. You seem incapable of making sense except by accident.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.104	14-Mar-06/2:00 PM
I’m fine with you being the only follower of your beliefs, and with me being the only follower of mine. It’s kind of silly to say somebody else is, or should be, the follower of my beliefs. The trouble with my beliefs is that they can change and make the old ones look silly to me sometimes.
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/1:44 PM
I meant "undetermined".
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/1:42 PM
You're being silly. It's subjective like saying Dovina is the square root of infinity. 3 is only the difference between 2 and 5. Infinity has nothing to do with it. That's like if someone asked you how far away from New York is an undeterined spot and you said "Oh about 300 miles further from the spot then Texas. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/archimedes/contemplating.html
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/1:19 PM
I'm perfectly fine with me being the only follower of my beliefs, how 'bout you?
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.104	14-Mar-06/12:55 PM
It’s heartening to hear you say, “God is beyond even the laws of nature and our own comprehension.” In saying that, you have removed Him from the walls of rules and logic and allowed Him to be God. (Perhaps He thanks you for your generosity.) I’m often called a heretic for doing the same thing. The strange thing about people who say that a good god would not allow suffering is that they usually also say, “the human race is, on the whole, intelligent and capable of solving its problems.” They take credit for the good and blame God for the bad, or they say there is no god because of the bad. Amanda is saying that God controls both good and bad. I say that God has left Himself many holes in the apparent order of nature through which to act, and act unreceptively, if He wants to. Like you say, its something I feel, beyond proof. I fully agree that my ignorance is beyond beyond.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	zodiac 204.238.24.4	14-Mar-06/12:48 PM
I forgot to say before that your previous post was very good. This one, too. From my perspective, everything I know about makes perfect sense without including God in my explanations for things. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to run my life, and I have to say I do pretty well. I'm a very good person. I have no problems in my life. Seriously. When I have had problems in the past, I've taken care of them the best I could by myself, and they've worked out. I don't feel any lack. I don't feel like anything doesn't make sense. I don't feel displeased by life or the usual explanations for things. Why would I include God in things? Really, without already believing, what'll make me interested in believing?
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	zodiac 204.238.24.4	14-Mar-06/12:36 PM
For ALL x, x-2 > x-5. Infinity is exactly 3 further away from 2 than 5.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/11:55 AM
The only God anyone here knows is the God they think they know for if God is beyond even the laws of nature and our own comprehension then there is no way to truly know him at this point in our existence. There is only what we think we know, what others think and tell us about God and what we feel is true in our hearts. If you're looking to prove or for proof of God then you're missing the whole point of faith. So please understand me when I say that whenever you tell someone about God, chances are you have no idea what you're talking about. So maybe you should start refering to him as "My holy father" as he defined by you and if you find a bunch of people who agree with everything you say about him, you and those people can refer to him as "Our father, who art in heaven". Even Jesus realized that.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/11:35 AM
They're still all hypothetical concepts/objects. pretty much everything is unique if you go by the view that no two things are exactly the same but what things can you think of that have absolutely nothing in common with any part of anything else? 183 is a number as is 184 and 182. At least you applied 183 to something. She's using it like it was one of The Letter People except it's a number and it's in heaven. Sure it's cute and all but it's also kinda naive.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	Ranger 62.252.32.15	14-Mar-06/11:13 AM
Well this is a beautiful thread. Dovina, you should have made 140785 the number which your poem refers to because then, not only is it an odd number, it is also the number of this poem. Therefore all this highly mathematical logic would be meaningless because the poem would be about itself rather than a number selected at random. Reminds me of a definition of 'analysis' that Scott Adams gave - 'analysis' coming (according to him) from the Greek 'anal' and 'ysis' ('to pluck numbers from'). Which is all very relevant to this post. ALChemy - what about a group of hypothetical concepts/objects that are grouped together solely because they're totally different? Then 'Article #183' would be unique. Imagine the irony if it was also a eunuch.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	amanda_dcosta 203.145.159.37	14-Mar-06/11:12 AM
Zodiac, man is just the product of God's handiwork. God has not made man God. But in creating man, He was merely being adventurous in giving 'man' freedom to think and act (i'm not saying 'act wisely'). So man begins his quest to dominate the world thinking that everything is his own and can be done on his own, yet he doesn't realize that he is only a very very minor part of the divine jigsaw puzzle which will in time wrap up together beautifully. Yet 'man' thinks that he is the only piece in the puzzle and that he is in control of it all. As for God amking good people and bad..... he doesn't. He gives you the choice to be good or bad, to believe in him or not. When it please you, you will say I did so and so to achieve this or that, ie. when good things come your way and you succeed in your life or profession, .... But when it's bad.... it's ' God made bad things happen. How else could it come about?' He doesn't make good or bad. we make it good or bad. And Gandhiji chose to do good rather than 'bad'. So can you.
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/11:07 AM
My point is that to say infinity is any further away from 2 then 5 is silly.
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	Dovina 69.175.32.104	14-Mar-06/11:03 AM
Smartass!
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	Ranger 62.252.32.15	14-Mar-06/11:01 AM
If by infinity you refer to the universe, then I believe another 'infinity' would make space for itself while not taking up any more space in any other universe. If you mean infinity in a purely conceptual manner, well I reckon I could get you a decent filing cabinet.
Re: a comment on We Do Not Write About by faithmairee	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/10:58 AM
See, I was closer than you thought but you should have realized I was being a smartass when I said 183 to begin with. I certainly realize that you were being a smartass.
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	Dovina 69.175.32.104	14-Mar-06/10:58 AM
Go girl! You amaze me sometimes!
Re: a comment on Numbers In Heaven by Dovina	zodiac 206.174.124.170	14-Mar-06/10:57 AM
For the sake of argument, let's say I DID say "the human race is on the whole intelligent and capable of solving its problems WITHOUT GOD'S HELP". I didn't, but let's say I did. Wouldn't it be a really cool thing for God to make human beings well enough that they could solve problems? I think it would. It would be better than him making us just awful. And do you really believe God sitting up in his workshop says, I'm going to make humans utterly incompetent! That'll show 'em! And making good people would be a good way of helping the world without being obvious. Like say He sees India is having a lot of trouble under British Rule and says, "Hey, I'll make a really great guy named Gandhi who's able to help out the country." Don't you agree it's possible that God works like that? Sure, God also makes bad people, the way I see it. But I believe on the whole He makes more good people than bad people, if He does exist. Yes, that's very hypothetical. Because it's my BELIEF. My BELIEF is also that Dovina isn't an actual angel because, one, I don't think angels exist, and two, her ignorance is beyond beyond.
Re: a comment on Settling in by INTRANSIT	Dovina 69.175.32.104	14-Mar-06/10:55 AM
ace, I think??
Re: a comment on Settling in by INTRANSIT	ALChemy 24.74.100.11	14-Mar-06/10:51 AM
Then after you leave the room it goes into the bathroom and polishes itself for a half hour.