Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/3:22 PM
You don't believe in psychology do you? Otherwise you would have no problem coming up with a logical or should I say psychoLOGICAL reason for believing in God. I did not ask for proof. I only asked for logical reason. Dovina had the right idea but her answer was too vague and symbolic. You could have said that God is the reminder that we don't know everthing yet and the goal that always lies ahead. By being this, he motivates us and in this way he is a good thing to believe in. But apparently you both know better because you both say that in the search of truth(Logic) you will never find God. What does that say about your idea of what God is?
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/2:54 PM
You'd laugh if you knew what my real motives for arguing with him on this subject are. No, I'm won't tell you yet either. I will give him this. For all his degrees and apperant know-it-allness he is still willing to bend a little and give folks the benefit of the doubt sometimes. He'll even occasionally swallow his pride. I'm still pretty sure I know women better than him. As far as you go dovina, don't you dare change anything. This site just wouldn't be the same without you.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/2:22 PM
What I truly love about you is I know you'll take it in the most positive way and so that is how I mean for you to take it.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/2:20 PM
That's pretty much what I asked for. A logical statement about Gods existence.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/1:58 PM
There you go again acting like logic exist outside it's concept. The only perfect(real) logic would have to have all the information there can be on the subject it's focused on. Being that logic is a method of using data and it aspires to find the perfect truth about it's subject. Because our data on most things is not complete then our logic must also be incomplete. Most of us use bad logic to some degree and all of us do it in different ways. Aristotle's logic, economic logic, predicate logic, Boolean logic, fuzzy logic, first-order logic, intuitionistic logic, I could go on. But of course your insisting that there is no logic in God and that these believers are mindless drones who will except anything attached to God as the Gospel truth. True there is bad logic and good logic in those beliefs and ideas but that can be said about most of us if not all of us. See it's a mix. What you call the only logic is really just the best method we know of now to find out the truth about something. Either that or you're talking about an idealized infallible logic that doesn't quite exist.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/9:48 AM
Stop making a God out of logic. It is not foolproof and some peoples version of logic is downright rediculous. Logic has more to do with faith than God does. All logic is, is a way of thinking about things. It depends on the point of view of the person as to whether it is reasonable or not. Use science or math but don't narrow the definition of logic to just what you or scientist think although in your own mind that is perfectly logical.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/9:36 AM
Personally I don't think it's hard to imagine this universe without god or even one in which he allows things to run without him. "GOD, is an absentee LANDLORD!"-Al Pacino as the devil in The Devil's Advocate. But I prefer to keep my options open. God is easier to live with when you put some if not most of the responsiblity on him. It's good to have him around to mentally get you through the toughest times.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/9:24 AM
She just hasn't been here long enough to see how wondrously Dovina burns her candle at both ends.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/9:13 AM
That's not what I'm saying. If you're vague enough you can group everything together but that huge number that you would have is just a symbol for the connecting relationship between the things being grouped. If you have a plum and an apple than yes you have two fruits but if you just tell somebody you have two fruits and they know you only own plums and apples then they are just as likely to assume you have two plums or two apples. So if you say you have one of each then you are obviously more accurate. You're aware that occupying different space means different time so one plum is always going to be older and so they are different. I'm only warning that it is dangerous to group things together without acknowledging first their differences. So one apple + one plum doesn't = 2 apples or 2 plums but two fruits. Yes 3 quantum identical plums + 3 more + 3 more = 9 quantum identical plums but what if 3 of them were apples. Then something needs redefined. I'm only saying math relies entirely on the object or subject it's describing. What the heck does E=mc2 mean if you don't attach it to something that exists. So really I was just agreeing with you and trying to put what you were saying in laymans terms. And failing miserably. By the way here's a version of genesis you might enjoy: http://www.annex.com/glopez/bookof.htm
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/3:27 AM
But God created the universe didn't he? I mean when exactly did he decide to go from chaotic natural universe to governed unnatural universe? God is the truth and logic seeks the truth so why isn't logic logically the best way to find God? Faith only desires to feel true. What Zodiac was saying is that math is a metaphor for anything that appears consistent or repetitive. Is that proof of God? Could you imagine a heaven where everyone was a cookie cut out doing the exact same things at the exact same time? Scary. In truthful reality 1+1=1 of each for everything is unique even if just for it's occupation of space and time. I love the fact that you are using the bible as a metaphor for your life because the truest bible you'll ever read is yourself. I just think you're smart enough to search deeper into yourself and find a God that doesn't sound so much like a fairytale. But even if you don't I still think your poetry is quite beautiful.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/2:28 AM
Just because someone said that love is blind and sometimes it appears to be blind doesn't make it blind. As far as God is love? Well love is a chemical reaction sturred by mental stimuli that is designed to urge a species to procreate ie. Sex or it is a simular chemical reaction meant to cause a desire to group oneself with another usually for the sake of safety and survival. So maybe God exist for the sake of sex and safety. I kinda like that idea. Shouldn't God be blind in the way "love is blind" anyway. "No, your ugly. You can't go to heaven." Seems logical that in that way God should be blind. Why shouldn't a God that created us to think in logical terms(at least aspire to) not make his own existance appear logical? If that child's father told him to go kill his puppy to prove his loyalty to him. if his father watched him being tortured and nailed to a telephone pole and didn't do a thing about it even though he could have ended it emediately. Do you honestly think the child would still trust him? Only if the child was insane. If I told you that the bible you read is one that was rewritten and edited by the multi-god Greeks and Romans and then later by a cruel English monarchy. If I told you some books of the bible are lost forever to us and some passages were entirely invented in later versions of the bible. Would you still call it the word of God and worship the bible(which by the way the bible tells us not to worship objects)? I don't mean to scare or offend you but if the word of God exist then the only place it's truly written is on our souls. I do believe the spirit of God(whatever he is) eminates from the bible as well as others. The Chronicles of Narnia for example or Dante's Devine Comedy. The childs bond to it's father can be summed up like this: If you drop me I might die but you hold me and feed me and keep me warm so that I don't die so I guess I owe my life to you at least until I'm old enough to live on my own. Now, I'm about to tell you what God is so hold on. God is the idea that something exist beyond our capacity of knowledge and the hope that someday we may become a part of that higher level of existance.
Re: a comment on Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	30-Dec-05/1:32 AM
Here, This fill you in: http://poemranker.com/poem-details.jsp?id=135575
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	30-Dec-05/1:25 AM
See?
Re: Romans 8:28 by amanda_dcosta	29-Dec-05/4:17 PM
The last line of stanza 2? maybe change to "I'm running away scared." But as far as I'm concerned it's fine to mix the styles up a little. This isn't your best work though. I believe on God. I'm not sure why. Maybe you can give me some logical explanation for believing in God.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	29-Dec-05/3:54 PM
No, but I do believe in the Letter People.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	29-Dec-05/9:21 AM
Sure. As long as you can suppress any raicist thoughts you might get.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	29-Dec-05/12:38 AM
I agree. My only point was that these things must first be obtained through the senses before they can be processed into information. Logic is how we use information. Sometimes in aquiring more information. I will say we obtain information that we think is false too and even subliminal info that we don't even know we've obtained. So logic and truth don't always have to be there at least at the start.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	29-Dec-05/12:24 AM
These precepts are only logical to us because we percieve them as logical. No logic made these precept they just came into being through action and reaction. Even the bible doesn't say god made the universe because he thought it was the logical thing to do. He just said let it exist. Probably because he just felt like doing it. As a matter of fact some logic is considered forbidden in Genesis. Logic has little to do with being right. It's just a way of organizing information to suite your needs. The Natzis used logic to convince people the killing Jews was a good thing. Was that right? Depends on your point of view. Logic is a human function not some mystical force that governs the universe. Over time we have learned to hone our grasp of reality enough that our logic tends to stay consistant with the ways of the universe. Yet this conversation is proof that we still have a long way to go.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	28-Dec-05/11:59 PM
The fact that I'm not married means I'm more likely to be an impartial judge to characteristics of marriage.
Re: a comment on It's Time by PoeticXTC	28-Dec-05/1:48 PM
The universe can, did and someday will exist without logic as it has and will exist without us. Hardly integral darlin. Are you trying to say there's some logic that exists beyond the mind of living creatures? Wow. I give up. I don't know what you're insinuating with words like insuations but I believe I'll finish this debate the way Ralph always ended up. By swallowing my pride and saying "Baby, You're the greatest". Have a happy New Year Dovina.