zodiac30 Dec 2005

To answer Dovina's earlier question:
Imagine a universe without intelligent beings. Now suppose that in this universe there's a plum

O

- And another plum

O

Of course, they're not called 'plums', since there's no one there to call them anything. But I think we can agree that for all practical purposes the plums are there and pretty much the same as they are here.* Are you with me? In English, you'd say, 'There are two plums'. 'Two' is only a description of plums, specifically a description of quantity. We could just as easily say 'There are purple plums' or 'There are round plums'. In a universe with no intelligent beings, the descriptions 'two', 'purple' and 'round' wouldn't exist, of course - no language would. But the nature of the plums, the quantity, color, and shape, wouldn't be any different there. You see?

You can also just as easily (and correctly) say 'One plum and one plum means there are two plums', or 'One plum PLUS one plum means two plums'. That's still just description, right? Mathematicians abbreviate those sentence into '1 + 1 = 2'. They all mean the same thing. They're all only language.

I can even do more complicated descriptions. Suppose in our hypothetical universe I have three valleys, each of which have three plums - or,

\ O O O /\ O O O /\ O O O /

In English, I can say 'There are nine plums', or 'Three valleys with three plums in each of them means there are nine plums altogether', or 'Three groups of three plums means nine plums', or '3 x 3 = 9'. All of those statements are essentially equivalent. They're just our language for describing plums. They don't change the nature of the plums.

WHAT I THINK YOU'RE SAYING: One characteristic of intelligent beings that wouldn't exist in an unintelligent (or God-oriented) universe is our tendency to arbitrarily group discrete, unique objects, to say 'There are two PLUMS' instead of, say, 'There is one round purplish thing and one not-so-round reddish-yellow thing'. You'd think that in, um, Heaven, one could only say 'One round purplish thing and one not-round red-yellow thing means only one round purplish thing and one not-round red-yellow thing.' Everything's unique individualness in the eyes of God means no two things can be grouped into 'plums', ergo no numbers and maths.

Bollocks, I say. I can do math descriptions at any level. For instance, 'How many things with color are there? Two.' Or, 'How many different shapes are there? Two.' Or simply, 'How many things are there? Two.'